The Lifestyle Prescription: Fashion Psychology, Confidence & Mindful Shopping | Rena x Dr Dion Terrelonge

So it's probably quite tricky to understand what we do. Mm. But from my perspective and thinking about my own practice as a fashion psychologist, I am a psychologist, first and foremost who mm-hmm. Is a trained psychologist. And what I have done is I'm taking like the knowledge and the, the research and the theories and the frameworks of psychology and taking those, almost transposing them and [00:02:00] applying them to fashion.

And I'm doing that to help us understand fashion a bit better. Right. To understand our own interactions with fashion. Mm-hmm. To understand how, um, clothing makes us feel, um, to help us understand how we make decisions around fashion. Help us understand why we consume so much. Mm-hmm. Help us, help us understand, um, what, uh, guess like fashion brands.

What marketing they use to get us to buy so much. All of that is psychology. It's all human behavior. Yeah. And understanding how we interact with our environment. So I, that's what I do. Terms of fashion, psychology

Rena Annobil: and as well as that. Um, do you kind of get a sense of who a person is from looking at the way that they dress?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: You do you know, what do I You do a little bit.

Rena Annobil: Mm,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: you do a little bit. Because when you walk into a room or walk into any space mm-hmm. Your clothes say a lot about you before you open your mouth. I always say that and it's true, but you are not necessarily getting the whole truth of a person. Obviously you are getting what that person wants to show you [00:03:00] of themselves on that day, at that time in that situation.

'cause we all know we dress differently. For different situations, like what you might wear to a job interview is one thing, and then what you might wear out raving is another thing. But they're both you, but they're different sides of you or different parts of you, or the part of you that you wanna share.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So I think, you know, when you look at what a person's wearing, what you can say is, this is potentially, if that person has choice and agency of their own clothing, this is the person they want me to see them as today.

Rena Annobil: Okay.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Or how they wanna be seen today.

Rena Annobil: And how would you describe your own relationship with fashion and style?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I say as I sit here all in black today. Um, how would I describe my own relationship to fashion and style? I love fashion. I do, but I would describe myself as a fashion voyeur. Okay. In that I'm much more interested in what other people are wearing.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I love watching runway shows and watching the beautifully crafted gown.

Like not necessarily just gowns, but outfits and just thinking about the thought behind them and [00:04:00] the feelings they invoking you as, as you watch them. Mm-hmm. I love that. I love nothing more than just kind of being down brick lane in East London on a weekend and just watching the fashion.

Rena Annobil: I know. I love

Dr Dion Terrelonge: that too.

The fashion traffic. Love it. I could watch them all day, which is a bit creepy, but I, I really, I really like it.

Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: No, but there is something about places like

Rena Annobil: London, which is quite freeing mm-hmm. As

Dr Dion Terrelonge: well,

Rena Annobil: like in terms of

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yes.

Rena Annobil: And, and like having lived in London and moving away, you really do notice that, you know, people do dress more conservatively and differently and in London you can, it is kind of like anything goes.

And I love that about London.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: People dress. Often you see people dress more conservatively and more of the same. The same, the same.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: When there is a risk to being indifferent, the greater the risk to being indifferent. Then the less likely you are to see that. We see it when, um, countries or areas become potentially more conservative in their views.

And also if they're more cliquey or, um, if they are [00:05:00] more homogenous in the demographic, you might see that as well.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: But when you have a lot of difference, they're already visible difference terms of like different races, different cultures, different religions. And also the thing about London, this is not just, this is not a London campaign, but is that it's a city of strangers.

And once you moved there, you don't have that history of who you were in primary school and secondary school.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And those same people buzzing around you. So you are able to reinvent yourself. And there's so many different pockets of people that you can just find almost like your, your, your new ingroup if you want to.

So I think it's just, it's quite freeing in that way. You can just let go.

Rena Annobil: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, how can we tell though, if we are dressing, you know, for, for ourselves, uh, you know, to kind of express our own self-expression or we are doing it for approval? 'cause you did say that there's, we dress differently for different things.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. Yeah. How can you tell? I think we know, don't we? We know, and I would say to a person, just listen to your own inner narrative, your inner script. I kind of think of it like a record. I guess if there's any [00:06:00] young listeners, maybe, I guess they're, they're on trend now. Again, vinyls, they're on, we call them vinyls.

Um, so if you think of it like a, a vinyl with like the music almost etched into it. You've got the little grooves when the needle goes down, that is like the, the story that plays in your head. And ask yourself when that needle goes down on your brain, when you're getting dressed in the morning, what does it play?

What does it say? And if it's saying to you. You don't look good in that your arms look too fat. Or, um, people are gonna think, who are you to even wear that? Do you think you're too much for yourself? Then you can tell you're dressing for other people. 'cause it's about what does that voice say? If your voice is saying, I feel good in this.

Oh, this feels like me today. Oh, I love this item. I remember when I wore it here, it reminds me of this person. If your, if your narrative is saying, I, then, you know, you're dressing for yourself. If your narrative in your head that's playing is saying, what will other people think? It's literally as simple as that.

But I think that people do split into these kind of two camps of being other, um, uh, kind of internally motivated dresser where [00:07:00] they're dressing for their own enjoyment, their own excitement, their own creativity, their own mood, their own feelings. They wanna be warm that day. If they wanna feel like they feel a bit sad, they not like a cuddle from like a oversized jumper that keeps them warm and has that bit of weight on you.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Or are you saying. Oh, I've gotta go to this event. Everyone's wearing sequins and looking all, uh, shiny or I dunno why they're shiny. Um, and, and I better too, if you are, you can hear what you're saying to yourself. Mm-hmm. But I think the reason people might not notice if they are dressing for themselves or other people is because they might not have taken the time to slow down to listen to those thoughts.

I, I remember when I used to be a stylist, um, and I would hear people, those thoughts came out out loud. That's how I knew, and that's what I said about the arms. I remember there was a woman and I was, uh, taking her shopping and I said, what are we looking for today? And said, I need an outfit for my birthday.

And it's a birthday. Her family's home. She said, I want something that just hides my arms. My family don't comment on how big my arms are.

Rena Annobil: Oh, oh [00:08:00] man.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. So what was she looking for? Something for herself or something for other people straight away. Or this other woman who said, oh, I'm looking for a pair of jeans.

I said, okay, let's look in this shop. I won't name it. And she's like, I can't go in there. So why? Said, that's not for me. So then she had a narrative on her head as to who that shop was for and who it represented. And it wasn't her, but I was like, it sells jeans. And you've got, you have fortunate enough to have two legs.

So those two legs will go in the two legs of the jeans. They're for you. But people have these narratives and it's, it's, it's like this internalized voice that we've taken on board, this third person judging us and

Rena Annobil: Yeah,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: that we're thinking about when we're dressing.

Rena Annobil: Um, just thinking about the state of the fashion industry now and just like trends and things like that, like, uh, in terms of like how women are dressing now, do you think that there is like less dressing for the male gaze at the moment or do you think that it's going the other way?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah, I made a weird face this then. Um, because a bit of dissonance came across me. I think because [00:09:00] it's shifting, isn't it? I do, I feel a shift. I think we got into a quite a good place of this trajectory of dressing, begin to dress more for ourselves in terms of taking risks, having fun and fashion, becoming more about experimentation.

And I think social media did play a bit part in that because people could put on outfits at home and just show the world. It wasn't about going out and it wasn't about, you know, you could live in any area and there could have been people around you in your local area that didn't quite understand your style, but you could hop online and then still find your people.

Mm-hmm.

Rena Annobil: So

Dr Dion Terrelonge: you had that opportunity. But I think with the rise of things like tra wives and, um, we are seeing more of a drift in the fashion world, back to more conservative styles, um, that I think we are starting to see more of that male gaze popping back in again a little bit. Um, and I'm not sure what that is due to.

I think there's a little bit of the [00:10:00] political. Nature, which we won't go into what's going in the world at the moment with countries, we see this regression and we call it like a, like a, um, a regression or deviation to the norm. Whereby, like speaking statistically, if your data set kind of goes up and down undulates, and you've got the average here mm-hmm.

It might drift away for a little while. But historically we always come back to this kind of norm, we drift back. So I think we became very liberal, very left-leaning throughout the, the, the 2020s, the 20 fifteens, the two thousands.

Rena Annobil: Even with, even with body image. I, I see this. Yes. There we go. That we had a lovely time where it was like, okay, you know what?

I'm gonna wear what I want. I haven't got flat stomach.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yes.

Rena Annobil: You know, I've got lumps and bumps. I'm proudly just wearing what I want. Mm-hmm. And then I feel like it's just, it, it's drifting. Yeah. And I, and I, and I find that quite worrying. Yes. And surprising. 'cause I was, for me, somebody who was brought up in the, you know, uh.

Nineties and early two thousands, eighties even.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Oh, that's prime time for, well,

Rena Annobil: that was like, you know, you, you are not gonna wear these clothes unless you resemble Kate Moss, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I had to, talking myself out of that kind [00:11:00] of thing was quite happy to see where we were heading. And now it's, um,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: drifting back.

Yeah, that's the deviation of the norm. And unfortunately, for some reason, actually not for some reason, it's because for hundreds and hundreds of years, what women wear has been dictated by men. We have dressed as accessories to the men, as secondary to men. That's not hating on men. This is just how it's been because men were the ones that worked.

Men were the ones that held the power. Um, so you had to dress in a way to be picked to be a wife. Because remember, like if you didn't get married, you were ruined, or you were seen as a spinster, you had no future. Historically way back. So I think there's something about dressing too. Pleas and dressing for survival.

And that's again, where you come back to dressing, um, to take risks. Often we dress in a way that keeps us safe, because even if you go back thousands of years, you dress in a way that let people know, I'm like you. So then you can be part of the group, part of the community and share resources. If you are too different, you are, you can become foe.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And then you're on the outskirts. So there's a lot of,

Rena Annobil: and [00:12:00] I, I

Dr Dion Terrelonge: match everyone's

Rena Annobil: safety. I mean, I think that this is, it is an important point to, to raise in, in this podcast episode, which is mostly women are gonna watch. I think that is quite an important thing to kind of bear in mind how it was historically and everything.

Um, what about like the, the just generally like the way that we behave when we wear certain things. Mm-hmm. Like what is it the impact of, of what we wear on our, um, moods and our behavior. Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Oh. It's kind of it Well, it, it, it def there definitely is an interaction. There's an, and so I think when you look at fashion or we think about clothing, we think a lot about kind of person perception, meaning how we are seen by other people.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: But there's this other interaction as well, the kind of interpersonal about how we feel like first, what's the impact on ourselves and our mood and our emotions. And there definitely is a link, I dunno about you've, but have you ever been to a party where you've gone in there and you've worn something that you think, why did I wear this?

I, I worn the other outfit. [00:13:00] I felt much more comfortable in the other outfit. I felt much more myself in the other outfit. And then suddenly in that space, you feel a bit more self-conscious.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Perhaps you're not putting yourself forward in the best way. Perhaps you're not speaking up as loudly and as confidently as you did in that moment because your brain is distracted by the fact that you don't feel comfortable in what you're wearing.

There's something about that interplay because I, your clothing is literally physically the closest thing to you. On most days, and it's the thing that you choose to wear each day to carry throughout your day, and there is an incredibly personal relationship. You know, there's studies that show it impacts your cognition, how you think, if you don't feel comfortable in what you're wearing, then especially if women, your brain is distracted thinking about how you look and how you feel in your clothing.

If your trouss are too tight, if you feel your top is riding down or falling your shoulder, then your brain is distracted and they, it is been found that women then don't perform as well on tests like maths tests and things, as opposed to when they're wearing something that they are comfortable in. So it does,

Rena Annobil: so it does, it does have an [00:14:00] impact.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. Yeah, it does

Rena Annobil: have an impact. It does. Um, you know, uh, a lot of women would say, and I think it really, this depends on whereabouts you are in your life, you know, what phase you're in, but feeling stuck, feeling in a bit of a rut when it comes to, uh, like personal style. Like do you see that a lot? Like people feeling, feeling lost and I guess like the, the, the phases of life that I'm thinking about, which might trigger things like that.

I guess like, I don't know, having kids, having a baby, a massive life change. I know for me, I probably didn't even like wear anything other than like leggings and random hoodies for like years when I was a stay at home mom. Right? Yeah. And then like aging as well. Um, people, like friends even send me pictures on WhatsApp.

Should I buy these or these too old? Yeah. Or is this too young? Too young? And they know that I'm the kind of person who's gonna be like, just buy the thing. Who even cares? And I think that's probably why they're asking me.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. Do you like it? Yes. I wouldn't say just buy it, I'd say buy secondhand first.

But if, do you like it, then, [00:15:00] then, then you get it. Yeah. But, um, sorry, what was the first part of your first was around, so,

Rena Annobil: so basically why are there so many women who do feel lost when it comes to their personal style?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Oh, there's stuff stuck in style, right? I see it all the time. And it does happen around those kind of key stages of life, doesn't it?

When there's been a change And I, I was wondering about this the other day and I think it probably is in part to, you know, we think our style is personal style and when something is going on for you in your life where you're not able to. Think about yourself, that personal element gets lost because you're so busy as a mother, thinking about and tending to other people.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: If you are very, very busy in your work, you're so busy and focused, not work, and meeting deadlines and getting that done, that thinking about yourself, what your values are, what your good attributes are, what you like, what you don't like, what you want, it gets pushed the wayside. You know, especially as women, we are very quick to put ourselves aside in lieu of somebody else or something else.

So I think [00:16:00] you can get stuck in a star rut when you find for months or even years, you have not had that time or the head space to even say, hang on a minute, I've got dressed today. Did I like What I've put on, is this how I wanna present myself to the world? How do I wanna present myself to the world?

Who am I right now? You don't have that time sometimes.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: It can feel indulgent sometimes. All you have time for is to grab the first clean, clean thing. And I know some mums don't have that chance. It's grab anything because I know it's gonna be dirty. Get in two seconds with little hands. So it, I think it's like that you are, you as a person get put to a side sometimes, and when that happens, you don't have time to think about your personal style.

Rena Annobil: What do you think about the saying, um, dress for the life you want to live? Because I have heard that you are looking at me like, yeah, what the hell?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I,

Rena Annobil: some people have said that, you know, people

Dr Dion Terrelonge: say all sorts. They say retail therapy and dress to impress.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I say dress to impress, but to impress yourself.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. Um. Dress the life. I [00:17:00] think that people to for too long have been trying to dress the life they want. And that has what has led people to have wardrobes of clothing they don't wear and they open the doors and say, I've got nothing to wear. Yes, because you've got a wardrobe full of a tire for a red carpet event when you've never been to one.

So it's like, it doesn't make any sense. I think you should dress for the person that you want to be and the person that you want to present for yourself. And I'm gonna keep saying that 'cause that's what I mean. And I think that you need to think about the life that you lead right now and the clothes that will serve you and allow you to face that world and that life that you live confidently with your head held high and feeling comfortable.

So if you are, you know, um, a person who has a job with a always on the go and you are busy after work every day and you've got children, then you think about practicality as well. 'cause what you don't wanna be doing is wearing a body con dress all day. Unless you feel very comfortable in that. I know. I wouldn't, it's not very practical for running around.

Mm-hmm. And, and [00:18:00] stilettos, how are you gonna run for the bus or run for a train or if you're running late.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So I think it's about that balance. It's about, um, thinking about the life that you live right now. What you need to serve you and get you through that in the most, in the best way you can.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And but also having fun with it. So not to be too practical to the detriment or to the loss of fun and enjoyment. Think about, okay, yes, I need to be practical. I need things with pockets. I need, you have to carry a big bag to carry my laptop and my notebook and everything. But I'm gonna get one that's bright yellow 'cause my favorite color, but I'm gonna get one that, you know, um, has lots of change and gold because I like adornments.

So just thinking about that, it's like taking clothing and fashion and just make it work for you. You don't work for fashion. Fashion should work for you.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. Because do you think that sometimes there is this version of the, the way that we kind of. The person that we want to be in terms of dressing and then the, the one that we actually are, because in [00:19:00] my head mm-hmm.

I'm basically, uh, a brown Carrie Bradshaw walking around. Yeah. Mr. Letters like hot ringing around, running around. Mm-hmm. Uh, catching public transport and running around the streets of London.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yes.

Rena Annobil: I don't live that life, you know, I don't live that life. Mm-hmm. It is not gonna work for me.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Mm-hmm.

Rena Annobil: And so there's no, do you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. I can't really wear those things.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: There's also like a trap that people can fall into. I think. Um, you know, I think there's something about, I. If you're, say for example, if you're an artist and you aspire to be an artist who can like live off their work and is known for their art. Mm-hmm. You know, you want to go sh show it like, I don't know, art Basel, whatever.

Mm-hmm. Is it Basil? Basil? You know what I mean? Um, then you might dress in a certain way until you get that life and that's fine. That's aspirational, as long as it still works for your day-to-day life. Um, but you know, if you are constantly thinking about how you should dress and how you want to dress in this idealized life, if the gap between your ideal self [00:20:00] and where you actually are, your actual self is too big, it's in that gap that.

Unhappiness can creep in. Um, um, resentment can creep in, dissatisfaction creeps in because you're saying, well, this is where I want to be, and this is where social media, and when I open, open a magazine, fashion says I ought to be.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I ought to be wearing the latest trends. I ought to be looking fantastic all the time and put together, and I'm not there, therefore I failed.

And that, and that gap is where dis dissatisfaction lies. So you want that gap to be as small as it can where you actually are and where you'd ideally like to be, need to be closer. The closer they are, the more content you'll be.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm. So I want to just kind of focus now on how fashion and style and even things like colors and can, can actually boost our, you know, our, our mood, our self-esteem and, and be very positive for our mental health.

Mm-hmm. Like what, what would you say about, uh, like the, the psychology of like, uh, color and, and things like that when it comes to, to moods? [00:21:00]

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I am not, I mean,

Rena Annobil: I know you weren't. Let's ignore the fact that you are wearing black. That's like,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: no, you

Rena Annobil: are. Yeah. I see pops of green. I see pops of red, I see pops of gold.

So

Dr Dion Terrelonge: yes. But then you've got it. Good thing I think, I think I made that in inhalation because I think if anybody's ever heard me speak before or written, I'm quite a naysayer when it comes to the psychology of color.

Rena Annobil: Right, right.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Okay. Because it's so personal. Right. And there's cultural narratives in it.

So it varies so much between where you live in the world, between your religious background, where you grew up. Yeah. What your family, well, what that meant to you, what you associated with. So yes, I'm wearing all black today, but I love wearing all blacks, so it does make me happy. So people would say, you know, you should wear bright colors if all happy.

What if I'm a goth? What if I'm a hardcore raver from Berlin? I'm not gonna, you know, why now do I from

Rena Annobil: Berlin? Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Now do I wear bright colors? Yeah. No. So I, it's about your association. So I think there. Is something about color. So there's something about color, more kind of [00:22:00] like neuropsychologically in terms of there are certain colors that is harder for the eye to process, and therefore the eye is caught more bold by them.

You're drawn in. Mm-hmm. So there's theories around, like, if you wanna be noticed when you walk into a room. Yes. We are red because it's a, it's a color that has like different wavelengths. So your eye is more drawn to people wearing red because you're trying to process it. Mm-hmm. So it draws your attention.

It's why it's used for stop signs and for danger. That's why. So there's that psychology, but in terms of the individual person. If you are a person who likes attention, likes people to turn and look when you walk in a room, then that will lift your mood because you're getting what you want from wearing that color.

But if you are a person whose favorite color is black or gray, and then you wear red, it won't do that for you. Or if you're a person who doesn't love attention, it won't do that for you.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So I think when you think about the symbolism behind colors

Rena Annobil: mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Um, you know, for example, um, you're kind of wearing purples [00:23:00] today.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And that looks great on your skin tone. It looks great on you. And I'm presuming you like that color. I do like this color. Yeah. Great. And then in, but in some cultures, I'm not saying anything too bad. Don't worry. In some cultures it's linked to mourning. So, and agreement and loss. So if you're a person for whom your family comes in that culture, or you've grown up in that culture, you might not feel very happy when you put purple on.

Because it's associated with loss, a mourning.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So it's gonna vary person to person. And other people might associate, uh, purple with what it has been linked with historically in the West, which is wealth and, uh, monarchy and royalty status.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So maybe that's what you're channeling today. So it will depend on I know person.

Yeah.

Rena Annobil: I, yeah. And, and also like the whole cultural thing. Um. I think when, when you talked about culture, like I really do feel like that does make an impact. 'cause when I think about myself and like, you know, uh, being Indian and mm-hmm. What, when I go there, like it's literally people will wear every color of the rainbow, like all at the same time and it's not a thing.

And it's not like [00:24:00] neutrals everywhere and stuff. There isn't that. Yeah. And, and same like if I go to like where my, my husband's from to Ghana, there's also It's very vibrant. Yes, yes. And I think because, you know what I mean? Like if you are there and you kind of are immersed in these cultures, yes. It becomes that use of the cul color becomes very kind of normal to you and in your house and stuff as well, I guess.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah, of course. And pattern in terms of psychology, and I think, so a lot of fashion psychologists talk about a lot is enc cloth cognition, which is basically means that sometimes when you wear certain items of clothing that you strongly associate with a particular value or, um, or a traits like for example, if you.

I don't know if I came in here wearing like a blazer. Mm. And I felt that that made me think about women in power. And I thought about kind of Michelle Obama. Then I might feel when I came in here. Right. A bit more powerful. Yeah. A bit more eloquent. Whatever I associate with Michelle Obama, I might take on those traits.

And that's been shown to happen. [00:25:00] This is why you dress up for interviews because you're trying to personify the traits that you want to show the other person. But, um, in terms of color, the same thing could happen.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Or patterns if you, you know, if you associate yellow with happiness and spring and new beginnings and you feel like, do you know what, this week I feel like I need a fresh start.

It's Monday, I'm gonna really get going in a positive way. And you put on yellow. Then you're gonna feel that, you're gonna feel like I have the power to have a fresh start, the power to make change because of your own personal associations, but another person may not fit the same way. So that's why I say it's personal.

Rena Annobil: Yeah,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: no,

Rena Annobil: that makes sense. Um, you know, if somebody is feeling quite down for whatever reason, uh, in life, like, would you ever kind of, um, encourage or recommend them to, I don't know, uh, alter the way they dress or think about the way they dress in a different way? To just boost their, their, their mood a little bit.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: It depends [00:26:00] on obviously what's going on for them.

Rena Annobil: Mm. Uh.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I have seen with social media, some people online who kind of wield psychology talking about, you know, dressing your way out of like almost depression. I'm like, no, no, no, let's not, let's put those kind of false narratives out there. But I think fashion and clothing, it does have the power to lift mood a little bit.

Um, you know, we've got different types of happiness. You've got EU demonic happiness, which is kind of like doing good. It's the type of happiness you get from helping other people from doing charity work.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: From achieving from working hard. That's EU demonic happiness. But then you have the more kind of short term instant gratification, which is, hed.

Happiness is what I get, you know, is that what I, I get it from eating sweets basically, or having a nice, nice glass of wine or having a little dance that's hedonic wellbeing and happiness. But you can also get it from your clothing. So if you put on something that you think, oh, I feel really confident when I wear this, or it reminds me of that [00:27:00] time I had a fantastic night out with my partner or with friends, or whatever it is, then it can lift your mood a little bit.

Or it could be as simple as wearing like a football shirt from your favorite team because you love that team or you know, something, um, with your, a face on of your, uh, favorite, uh, artist or in terms of like musical artists. So I think again, it really does, does have the power to lift your mood. And I've seen it in people whereby sometimes fashion, when you use that word, it gets people's backs up because it can be quite exclusionary.

And I think fashion trades on. Being exclusionary and, and kind of, you know, look at Bon at Burberry, when they rebranded theirselves and they did that specifically because they felt too many people of a certain demographic, which they call in UK Chaves, were wearing their brand. Yeah. They distanced theirselves from that check.

Why if the people who you know, had this from a certain background wanted to wear your brand, why can't they wear it? And they felt it changed the [00:28:00] narrative of their brand, that it devalued their brand. And it wasn't for that type of person. It's only for this type of person. And I think people are very aware of that, that fashion says, I'm only for this type of person, people who are this class, people who are this thin, people who are this young.

So sometimes, rather than trying to put yourself out there and try to, to to dress fashionably, people shun it and they keep it away for fear of failing or for fear of not being good enough or for fear of being seen to try. We don't like to be seen to try in the uk that's a bit of a ick for us sometimes.

So there's a lot going on for people. It's a very. Difficult relationship we have with our clothing and fashion.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. That whole thing of, of being seen to try too hard. So is do you think, so it is a UK thing then, do you think, have you noticed,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: uh, I dunno about other cultures. Yeah. But I feel like if you compare to America whereby they're very comfortable talking about themselves and saying what they're good at.

Like, they say, I am this, I am funny, I am smart, I am a go-getter. I You don't hear that in England as much.

Rena Annobil: No. [00:29:00]

Dr Dion Terrelonge: It's something that people have to say of you, you can't say of yourself. And also, you know, if a person's, oh, you look great, they go, oh, oh, it's nothing. I just threw it on.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. This old thing. Oh no, I found on the street somewhere.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: You downplay it. You downplay it. You know, even when you introduced me, I felt uncomfortable and I was like, I dunno, don't say that. Just say Dion's here. That's it. It's like

Rena Annobil: Dr. Dion, Terry Long, that is who you are.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: No. And see again, that feels like, ah, weird. Um, and I think there is something about being seen to try, you know, again, when I was signing people, I would put people on in outfits sometimes, you know, that weren't that loud particularly, but they said, oh, I dunno if I can wear this.

People will think I'm trying too hard. Or people will think, you know, where am I going in this again? You hear that? Who are you dressing for? People will think we, I think as a, as a, as a, as a a species anyway, love to fit in. We love to be part of a pack. We [00:30:00] want to feel safe amongst our peers and to say, look, I'm like you.

I don't think I'm better than you. I don't think I'm too, we can be a little bit different, but not too different from you.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And it's about your culture. So like I said, in Ghana, if that means wearing, like is it, is it Ken Tap print they wear in Ghana? I think

Rena Annobil: that's a traditional one. Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Like wearing like a great Ken tape print.

You won't, if you wore that, maybe just walking around. I dunno, sorry. I don't know. You might look like you stand out a little bit as opposed to wearing that space of Ghana. So it's always about fitting in. 'cause that's where, again, where safety lies.

Rena Annobil: Well, is this, what trends are about though? Are trends about, you know, fitting in and,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: oh, that's new ways to fit in, aren't they?

They're just new ways of fitting. And because somebody, somebody signals to the world says, everybody alerts. This is the new trend. And again, to fit in. And it's not to fit into one group, it's about what group you wanna fit into. So you'll be looking, and that's why we have social media influences of a certain age or demographic.

And you, you are blinking at

Rena Annobil: that? No, no, because I'm, I'm, I'm just, I am at the point where I'm like, [00:31:00] I dunno what I did to make my algorithm recommend things to me. Like, wear this with this.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Oh no.

Rena Annobil: I am just like, what did I do wrong? Because I wanna sort this out 'cause I literally don't care. What, I don't wanna wear this.

You

Dr Dion Terrelonge: hover it over something for

Rena Annobil: second. Well I did. And now it's like, right. This is a new color combination that you should be wearing. This is this, you know, I'm just. No, it's not. Yeah. Because I don't care anymore. Yes. And I don't care that you're supposed to do this, or you're supposed to do these kind of tuck-ins of your shirts and this and that.

I'm literally like, you know, I could go on there and be like, well, look at me. I think you've gotta wear, you know, a slightly different textured purple and then put it with this and this is what we do and you've gotta put your socks like, you know, I, I don't

Dr Dion Terrelonge: There's a lot of

Rena Annobil: that there. There is. Yes. And to the point where I'm just, I feel like I'm just so saturated with it now.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. And there's even, there's patterns in that as well. Have you noticed? I think there's patterns around, you have to do the new thing that makes you look young is so, I don't about you, but being manual, it's like, I remember thinking of the gym and wearing my trainer socks thinking, looking around thinking, [00:32:00] no one's wearing trainer socks anymore.

Everybody's pulling their socks up.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I better pull my socks up. And then, you know, our French tuck is out now. The French tuck that Tam Tran.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Does on a queer eye. No more of that. That's a very millennial thing as well. So, and then you've got the young ones taking the mickey out us online. God, do I do that?

Do I, do I need to stop doing that? Mm-hmm. I think because there is this, um, fashion is obsessed with youth and as much as we try to shake it even affects me. You know, I, I, I will find myself taking it on and I'll find myself second guessing and pulling my socks up. I'll find myself not talking my shirt in.

I'll find myself wearing wide leg. Rob, skinny jeans are gone. To be fair. Actually, they're gone because they're uncomfortable for me anyway. I was glad they went. I was,

Rena Annobil: I know they, they were a bit ridiculous. However, they're not gone from the shops.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: No, no.

Rena Annobil: They're not gone from the shops and people still wanna buy them.

And people send, there's some people who will never let go of those skinny jeans. And you know what?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Good

Rena Annobil: for them

Dr Dion Terrelonge: because often people. Find their style at a certain point in life. So you explore your identity [00:33:00] usually around your teens. When you start wearing all sorts of things, you go, I'm gonna wear, I'm so glad there's no pictures of me in my teens because I tried so many things that now looking back and thinking what on earth?

But there's no evidence luckily. But, um, people experiment in their teens to find out who am I? Who am I to myself? Who am I to my family? Who am I to other people? Who do I want to be? So you literally use clothes to try on different versions of yourself. And often, once people find a self they're relatively comfortable with, they stay wearing that same.

Style. It's why you see older people kind of maybe still having like a, like a purple rinse. Yeah, they're still rocking it. They're still wearing a cute cardigan. They're still wearing a blouse. You, it's not in fashion right now, but it doesn't matter because that was their style once they found it. And same with people wearing skinny jeans.

Some people still wear skinny jeans because that is what they wore when they were in their teens or in their early twenties, and they were out with their friends and they felt most their selves and they felt happy in themselves. So they stick with it. That's what they know. It's what they feel comfortable in and why not?

To me, [00:34:00] they're cut off my circulation and my, my calf. So I, I, I don't really care

Rena Annobil: for them, but I, I mean, I, I've gotta say Dion, that I have a certain level of respect for people that are like this. I'm sticking with this thing from when I was 20.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah,

Rena Annobil: yeah. And I, this is my thing. Yes. I wear this kind of jacket and that's me.

Like I, I've got, do you know what I mean? Respect to you.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: It's good enough for Simon Co.

Rena Annobil: He's not bing, so. Yeah, exactly. Um, but, you know, um, coming onto the negative, uh, effects of style and fashion now, um, in your view, what are those like? Um, I guess something that, what I. I, something that I was, something that I have thought about and probably fell into the pattern of is retail therapy.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Uhhuh,

Rena Annobil: I, I do say that I'm a recovered shopaholic and I've spoken to Okay. I'm glad you

Dr Dion Terrelonge: recovery.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. I, I am. No, because I was, um, yeah, I, I spent a lot of money on mm-hmm. Things that I couldn't afford mm-hmm. Like in my twenties, which was not great. Mm-hmm. [00:35:00] Uh, so I totally. Understand anybody who, who is going down that route?

Like would you say that was one of the, the biggest negative, uh, effects of, of fashion and stuff? Like

Dr Dion Terrelonge: overspending?

Rena Annobil: Overspending over? Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I, I think over consumption is, was the biggest issue, you know, uh, because of the massive impact on people on the planet. You know, speaking of Ghana, think about like, uh, the Kente, Monto, uh, market there, which like had a massive fire recently where so many of our like waste clothes are going to flood in the market.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: More than they can sell more, they can carry damaging women's necks as they try to carry these bas of clothing that we've discarded. 'cause we've worn it once and it's, we've had a picture of it and now on social media and we can't wear it again. It's ridiculous. Mm-hmm. It is polluting in the beaches.

It's, you know, it, it, it's, it's, it is devastating the impact it's having on

Rena Annobil: mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: The planet. But we carry on and we carry on because as human beings, we like to feel good and our brains are wired in a way whereby we wanna maximize our [00:36:00] positive affect, which is like positive emotions and minimize negative affect.

And one way we can do that is through clothing. And the reason this particularly issue now of overspending as well, is because fashion has become more accessible than ever because of the prices. I dunno about you, but I know growing up you had to save sometimes.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: You say, oh, I've seen this great pair of jeans in Tammy Girl or Miss Selfish.

And you're like, I'm gonna save, I'm gonna get them. And you know what? You can save for a month. You go back. They're still there now. Trends change so fast that they might not be there. There's no guarantee.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Um, and also I think what it does is it gets people kind of always chasing the next thing, which doesn't allow you to feel settled in yourself, settled in your own personal style.

How can you find your personal style if you're always changing trends as well? And then I think, you know, the biggest impacts, there's so many, um, I think,

Rena Annobil: but talking about our [00:37:00] mental health, right?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: And over consumption and chasing this next thing that cannot be good for us to always have that going on, you know?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: No, again, it breeds that dissatisfaction, doesn't it? Because you're never satisfied with what you have. You open your wardrobe and nothing brings you joy anymore as the same way as when you bought it. Because when you bought it, you, you were able to hunt it, you bought it, you got that dopamine hit, but the dopamine hit doesn't last because there's no attachments to the item of clothing.

It doesn't mean anything to you. You haven't built any memories in it because you've only worn it once. So what, you haven't had to work for it. So you haven't had that gratification, that satisfaction of having a safer of taking your time and hunted it down in that way. So you, your literal emotional connection to that item of clothing is far less than it would be.

Had you taken your time, had you thought about, does it really reflect me? Does it really, um, um, make me feel like my, the true version of myself? Do I really [00:38:00] even want it to go away and come back? It, so it's, it's almost like a Teflon. Relationship that you build up with your clothing as opposed to a real bond with it, uh, is what tends to happen when you shop too much.

Yeah.

Rena Annobil: So do you think that we need to be buying less, but like, I don't know, like what, what would you say? Like, better things, but less of them so that we can really kind of appreciate the things that we have.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Mm-hmm.

Rena Annobil: Which is obviously the opposite of fast fashion.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah, of course. It's the opposite of fast fashion.

Yeah. Um, there's, I think number one. Is slow down. Slow down. We don't need as much as we think we need and we think we need more. Because of the fact that clothing is so accessible these days. It's, you know, being produced, um, cheaper than ever because of exploitation like factories and things. Um, they're using poorer fat, uh, poorer quality fabrics.

The quality of the sewing has like the hems, the seams, it falls [00:39:00] apart faster. I think about like planned obsolescence. It's designed that way to then get you to come back and buy more. 'cause it does not last. And I think. In terms of its impact on our mental health and our wellbeing. There's obviously the spending more than you have, and I think what I'm seeing is actually people using shopping as a bandaid.

And you mentioned, um, retail therapy there. The world at the moment is in quite a dire position more today than, uh, ever in recent years. But we feel, you know, out of control in terms of mortgages are so high, the price of property is so high. I mean, so it's harder for young people to buy a mortgage. Think what's the point?

I'm never gonna get a house, but I can buy that bag. That's what I can do right now. I can buy those jeans right now. What's the point? I can never save enough to retire because the market keeps moving, so I might as well buy the item of clothing. So we're seeing a bit of revenge dressing there and I think what we're seeing is people also are, the levels of anxiety are higher than they've.

Being [00:40:00] historically. So there's something about quelling your anxieties and quelling kind of like low mood, not quite depression, but quelling low mood by buying yourself things, by kind of treating yourself, making yourself feel better. And that's that retail therapy, but it is just a sticking plaster. It does not deal with the root cause.

It does not in the long term, make you feel better. And all that happens is we get these artificial peaks of dopamine in our bodies, but when you go up, you come down. So the crashes are harder as well. So then you kinda get this yo-yo effect on your mood and your wellbeing that is very detrimental rather than a kind of a steady release of dopamine or a steady level of happiness and wellbeing.

It's just an up and down, which is becomes a. I was gonna say a cycle, but cycles this way. But this is the vicious cycle.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: That it creates.

Rena Annobil: So a lot of people who might be doing this, like you said, there are various things that might be going on with them, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and, and we don't know what is going on with, with any one person and what challenges they're having.

But when, if you were just to [00:41:00] kind of, uh, before the point that anyone addresses the issues behind why they're buying this and why they're kind of using little dopamine hits of buying stuff and it's very easy to do. So now online shopping, it's easier than ever. Too easy. All the apps, it like, honestly, it's ridiculous.

Two clicks on the side of your phone, you bought this and that it's delivered to your house whilst

Dr Dion Terrelonge: watching Netflix

Rena Annobil: whilst

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I was having your dinner.

Rena Annobil: It's honestly very

Dr Dion Terrelonge: absent-minded. It

Rena Annobil: can

Dr Dion Terrelonge: be

Rena Annobil: it, it really is. Right? Yeah. Um, so what would you say to somebody who needs, needs to slow down and they know, okay, I am getting a bit out of control.

The bandaids are becoming a bit too

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: Kind of. I'm sticking 'em everywhere.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Covered in bandaids. Yeah. Um. Would I say, I think that, you know, the pandemic was a horrific time. Um, but what it did do is it pressed the pause buzz button by force. People were forced to pause.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And then you realize, hang on a minute, I've wearing the same clothes for [00:42:00] five days and I still feel like myself.

Pretty much. Yeah. I'm still getting the job done. Uh, my partner isn't particularly looking any different and you realize it doesn't really make that much difference actually. Um, and I think people needed that to be able to. Break that cycle of buying in order to see that you don't need to, it's like a habit.

Rena Annobil: Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And habit formation comes with you. You, you, you engage in a habit or you do a behavior. Mm-hmm. And then you get some kinda reward. Whether the reward is dopamine, whether the reward is people looking at you when you walk into a room, people commenting, don't you look nice? There's always some kind of payoff for it.

But we didn't get that during the pandemic in the same way. So it created a forced break. So I would say to a person who is wanting to slow down, if you can go to cold Turkey a little bit or put some parameters around your shopping, it'd be so helpful. I know people who have given up buying new clothes for a year, just see if they can.

And when they did that, it allowed them that [00:43:00] time and the space to examine their shopping habits to examine. Why they buy when they buy? Do they find they buy most often when they're bored, when they're feeling low, when they've had a tough day at work, when they have to face difficult situation, when are you doing it?

You don't know when you're doing it unless you give yourself the time and the head space to examine. That, those moments. So I'd say firstly, if you can take a break, that's the best thing to do. Um, or you can put some parameters, perhaps maybe you might say to yourself, I'm only gonna buy things that are made from natural fibers.

And at least putting that parameter Yeah. Gives you the time or it reduces the,

Rena Annobil: you limited yourself already. There we go. Which is a good thing.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: There we go. It limits the amount of options you have.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So you might say, well I'm not gonna buy this or this, this. So then you become more discerning and you begin to shop more consciously and more deliberately.

Or perhaps you might say, right, I'm only gonna buy things where the brand discloses, where the items were made in which factory, and do they pay their [00:44:00] workers a fair living wage? So that gives you parameters as well. So you need these parameters at the moment. If you are just kind of buying indiscriminately everything and anything, then that's where the problem lies.

I think what we need to try to move towards is a mindful consumption whereby you're saying, do I really need this item? What do I need it for? Am I gonna be able to wear it with at least five other items in my wardrobe? Will I wear it for years to come? Do I like it? If it costs double the amount, would I still like it?

Would I still buy it? If you wouldn't, then you probably don't like it that much. Also, give yourself the space. A really simple thing to do is if you see something you really, really like, go away. Give yourself a couple of days and say, right, if I'm still thinking about the item in a few days, then I'll get it.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: If I've forgotten about it, the chances are you didn't really want it.

Rena Annobil: Okay.

So

Dr Dion Terrelonge: you, you really need to build in those ways to allow yourself the space to slow down. But you're just saying slow down. It's very hard for us to do because the world is telling us to speed up social media. Every bus has an advert [00:45:00] on it for clothes.

The tube stations got billboards for clothes. It's coming at you from all angles. Yeah. So you need to build in those parameters a framework for yourself to say, how, how can I slow down?

Rena Annobil: Yeah. And it is quite difficult. 'cause like you said, all these things are there. Probably distorting our sense of self in a way.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: They do distort

Rena Annobil: all of this distort sense of self. Yes.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And they make us not think consciously about what we're buying because it comes too easily to us. It is literally at our fingertips. We do not have to emotionally or cognitively, cognitively engage anymore in the same way that we used to. When you had to get on a bus or get in your car to drive to the shopping center, you had to walk around the shops.

You had to carry the bags, you had to save up because clothing was not as cheap comparatively to how much you earn. It was a lot more effort and, and trend cycles weren't as fast. So it was very different.

Rena Annobil: So,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: so

Rena Annobil: fashion companies must be using these certain psychological [00:46:00] triggers then. To, to make

Dr Dion Terrelonge: this Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Rena Annobil: But they love it. Yeah. I mean, that is kind of a more advanced than what like, regular people will even realize.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: That, that, that is happening, you know? Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So wine games, you know, like when you go onto a website and it says 15 or 50 people are looking at this item right now.

Rena Annobil: Yes.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Why? Why? Who do I, why do I care?

Rena Annobil: Yes. I've noticed that recently.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And they're telling you that, and that's kind of like the, the scarcity bias. It's, I better get it now before it goes. And it's that kind of fake urgency. There's no real urgency there. It's a game. And also if you lose, if you don't get it. So what, and ask yourself, what would happen if I didn't have this?

Ask yourself, and the chances are nothing would happen, so let it go. They, they use things like that, you know, they, they do countdowns, um, you know, two days until the next drop. So you're waiting urgently to see what's gonna come in. They use celebrities, well-known faces on their campaigns because they know if you associate beauty and [00:47:00] wealth and popularity and being seen in a positive light with that celebrity, then perhaps you can get a little piece of what they have by owning clothing that they would wear.

Obviously, most often the brands they're promoting, if they're kind of fast fashion, they don't wear, they don't really wear it, but they're selling it to you and expecting you to wear it. Um, so it's, it's, it's a false commodity. It's a false narrative that's been sold to you, but that's the psychology they're using on us.

Rena Annobil: Okay. So, I mean, this is good to talk about it. Okay. To actually make people aware. No. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Just to make people aware that this is what you are, the product you Right. Product you are the product. Product,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: yeah.

Rena Annobil: We're not

Dr Dion Terrelonge: the about commodities.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Two brands, not to me.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. Um, okay.

So, um, I, I wanna just, uh, uh, I don't wanna forget about mentioning this, right? You know how people say this is flattering, you should wear this, it's flattering. Mm-hmm. Dress for your shape. What, uh, what does flattering really actually mean? Psychology, like psychologically, what does that mean? Yeah. And, and are we trying to hide bits of our [00:48:00] ourself?

Are we trying to kind of show bits of ourselves? What do we need to even care about that? Because it, it is a, it is a compliment that people

Dr Dion Terrelonge: throw. It's a compliment throw out. I think there was a achieve moment ago about skin tone.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And I think, um, I think it makes me think about like social constructs and I guess social psychology in terms of what is socially expected or, uh, socially valued or.

S you know what, what in our cultures are seen as positives even. So I think when people talk about body shape and that's flattering for your body shape, I really don't like that. 'cause what it's saying, what the underlying narrative is, there is a preferred body shape, isn't it? Because

Rena Annobil: Yeah,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: that, you know, flattering in what way?

That it's always gonna be, oh, that makes your waist look really small. So the best body to have is a small waist. Oh. That makes you look really slim. So you're saying the best way to be is slim? It's not, it shouldn't be about that. You know, it can be, things can be flattering in terms of it suits the person [00:49:00] and sometimes it might be that it suits their character or what you know of them.

So if they're a very vivacious person, they're very loud and you know, bubbly and they're wearing bright colors and patterns, you go, my gosh. This suits you, but what you're meaning is what you are wearing to me aligns with what I know of you. And that's different. That's an alignment. So you're kind of saying it's flattering to who you are.

Um, but

Rena Annobil: often I like that. I like thinking of it that

Dr Dion Terrelonge: way. That's a nicer way. Yeah. Yeah. But sometimes you, you see that that's very you.

Rena Annobil: Yeah,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: it's nice. And I, you know, there are some things that, I guess it's all social, isn't it? In terms of you might say to a person, um, that's flattering. You know, when I say that's flattering to your skin tone, what did I mean?

Maybe Anna, what I meant is that you've got, it made your skin look kind of like healthy, healthier, a glow when sometimes you might wear a color and um, it might be kind of clash with your skin tone. Or for me, some colors might maybe wash me out. They make me look a bit more grade, which I don't like. But then [00:50:00] that should be personal.

Actually, it shouldn't be another person to tell me it's flattering. So I take back my compliment to you. I apologize, but I take it back. But, uh, yeah, I think,

Rena Annobil: well, I like that compliment. Did you So I'm gonna hold

Dr Dion Terrelonge: onto that. I feel that's, well as, as a fellow brown person, you know, you kind of want that glow.

Yeah. You want that warmth. You want the richness that we get where the sun comes out, our skin comes back to life.

Rena Annobil: Yep.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So, but then again, that's the cultural context. We know historically coming from warm countries.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: That's what we are asking to look like. And that's what's healthiest. Mm. So there is actually that link between.

Flattery and health as well.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Um, at times. But I think most often when people say that's flattering, it's about these expectations we have.

Rena Annobil: Yeah.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: On our bodies and expectations that have been socially imposed on us. That's what we're talking to.

Rena Annobil: Okay. Okay. Um, you know, I was just, uh, looking at some, this study, uh, the other day that was recently done, um, that says that, uh, 84% of women, and I [00:51:00] think about 6,000 people were in this survey, 84%, uh, sometimes look at their wardrobe and say, I have nothing to wear.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. I'm not surprised at all.

Rena Annobil: So what is even that about? What's that about? If, if we've got a whole wardrobe full of clothes, why are we saying I've gone up into wear?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: I think I've touched on that in terms of like, so just not to be repetitive for the reader or the reader, the listener. I'm aware I've said these things, but I think it's a culmination of so many things.

One. Is that it is harder now than ever, I think, to find your own personal style and your personal identity because we have so many outlets shouting at us as to how we ought to present and how we ought to be. Therefore, that when we're buying clothing so often now we're buying it for the person we ought to be rather than who we really are.

So when you open the doors of your wardrobe, you're faced with things that might not really reflect or feel like you. That's one thing. I think another is, um, yeah, there's lots of reasons that you might be in front of [00:52:00] your wardrobe and feel like you've got nothing to wear. Um, the other thing is, I think a TouchNet slightly earlier on is about attachment.

Um, I think you shop well, not you, we shop so much these days and shop so fast that you don't have a chance to. Build a relationship with that clothing so it has no meaning to you. And also it's got less value. I think over the decades clothing has become less and less valued, literally, physically. In terms of like what is priced as people have less, um, idea of the work that goes into it.

In terms of the hands that have touched it, how much time, the creativity, the process, the effort that is not valued anymore. Not because people don't want to value it 'cause they're not aware. I think, I think people think that some kind of garment fair reappears and drops the clothes in their favorite shop or online and that it appears your doorstep magically.

That's how I think people think clothing comes to them these days. These days. So because there's less value in your clothing, you are less likely I think to. Take care for care of it, to [00:53:00] hold onto it. And if you're less like likely to take care of it and hold onto it, you don't live your life in those clothes.

So they have little meaning to you. So you open your wardrobe and it's just a bunch of stuff. It is literally just stuff. The only thing that makes a bit of fabric, your clothing is because it has some meaning to you. It has some memory in it. If you don't have any memories of you wearing that clothing at a concert or out with your friends or at a job interview, do I keep going about job interviews or like your job, then it, it's not your clothes, they're just clothes.

'cause you don't have, you haven't had the time to kind of forge that bond with them. So another issue is about time, literally, because we wear things once all too often. People now or even twice. And then you get rid of it. I think you know that it and trends change so fast.

Rena Annobil: They Well,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: they

Rena Annobil: do. They really do.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So you open your wardrobe and yes, you've been got a wardrobe full of mermaid core. But now we're onto cottage core. So now [00:54:00] what you gonna do? So now you are looking, and again, you're saying to yourself, oh my gosh, I've got nothing to wear. There's so it doesn't, so you've got this kind of like horribly heady combination of the clothing in your wardrobe, not truly aligning with who you are, the clothing being trend led and also being devalued so you have no value to it.

And also just because it's that kind of easy come, easy go, it's just stuff is what happens.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm. But then what do we even do about that? If we're like, oh my God, this is all like cottage core and I wanna do this now, and now I wanna go to like being like a Y 2K bad kind of look or whatever. Yeah. What do you do?

Or do you just ignore the trends in the first place? Like how do you avoid that it being one trend and then that becomes kind of like over, you know,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: this is where identity comes in. If you are, if you are, if. If you have had the chance and opportunity in life to forge your own identity, there are lots of things that can happen to you that can shake that.

You know, you might come grow up in a, a family or [00:55:00] a society that's very, um, or so directive, so you're not able to really explore yourself. Many things could happen. Why? Or, you know, we have, um, horribly high rates in this country of clothing poverty. So therefore you don't have the opportunity to try on different versions of yourself because you can't afford to buy different clothes to do that, so therefore you get a bit stuck.

But I think that, um, in terms of what you can do, uh, if you're faced with a wardrobe full of clothing, you know you wanna be a Y 2K bad. If you know what, if you already know what your personal style is, then you won't be swayed and waver too far from your central core anytime. You know, I think about a perfect example as Madonna.

She has reinvented herself so many times, but. What I would say is that she hasn't reinvented herself. She reinvents her style, but nobody looks at that and goes, oh, she's changed to a person. She's just Mod Madonna in different outfits, but she always kind of has that central tenant as to [00:56:00] who she is. If you have that, then regardless of what you wear, you still feel like yourself because you are secure and comfortable and confident in your sense of self and also your identity because you've had that chart in your life.

To go through the stages of identity formation and kind of say, ah. I get who I am as a person. Therefore, when these trends come along, mermaid core, you're like, okay, that's interesting, but I know who I am, so I know that's not for me. If you do not know that it's not for you, but yet social media is telling you it should be for you, then you're more likely to be swayed.

So it's almost like you picture it like a oak tree. The more stable you are in your sense of self, the less you'll be swayed. If you are more like a young sapling in your identity and you're still trying to figure it out, you are gonna be swayed which way and the other. So I think that is what happens to people.

So I think I would tell a person to slow down, always my ready to slow down in different ways and maybe look through social media, look on things like Pinterest, look through old pictures of yourself. Do what you [00:57:00] watch runway shows and think about. What styles do I actually like when I'm presented with like, all of this information?

Mm-hmm. What do I like? So I know I like clean cuts. I like tailoring. I like simplistic looks. I like quite classic looks. I'm not into floral, I'm not into ditzy, I'm not into frills, so I know that. So if cottage score comes along, I can appreciate very cute, but I'm not gonna be swayed by it because I know my own sense of style.

So I think people to look into themselves firstly and become a bit more secure in, not in a, uh, in a negative way, but become more secure and more sure of their own style first, because then it is easier for you to build this kind of capsule wardrobe that really reflects who you are. If you don't know that, then how do you know what to buy?

Rena Annobil: Okay, so capsule wardrobe, that's, that is a term which a lot of us kind hear as well. So for people that dunno, they're thinking what is a capsule wardrobe?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Ill, I'll be honest with, I don't have one because, because I also used to shop a lot when I was, uh, a bit younger, but I was also a hoarder. But I think I bought [00:58:00] things, but I've kept them for a long time.

Rena Annobil: Right.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: And then just to go back to your question about what do you do when you're faced the wardrobe for things that you think, I have nothing to wear. I would say tailor it. So I've taken things that, you know, I had from my late twenties that I think, oh, I love this still, but I can't wear it. It doesn't fit me anymore.

I take the tailors, I. I have the button move so it's a bit bigger so it fits like, you know, my more mature body or I've taken things and I've dyed them to change the color because I don't wanna wear that bright color or, you know, I've tailored to make it a V-neck rather than a round neck. You can really work with the clothes that you have.

If they are not working and serving you in that moment, fine. Don't throw them away. Think about what needs to change. Or sometimes you have a wardrobe that's very, very disparate, but it's full of multiple confused ideas. You can think about what would be the one or two key pieces that I would need to bring these together.

And sometimes it's those kind of, um, core pieces. Sometimes like as a plain white t-shirt, [00:59:00] uh, a blazer, a plain pair of jeans. Sometimes it's that that brings things together. So I was thinking about how can I make them work? Not that, oh, nothing works, it's how can I make them work? And also not how, not just how, but also why if you know that you're in a better position.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. But the capsule wardrobe, I would say it's more. A caption wardrobe doesn't mean that you have just only a couple of pieces. Well, it does, but it can also be that you've got a wardrobe that when you take one item here and one from here, you can easily mix and match because they work together.

Rena Annobil: Okay.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: If you have a wardrobe where many items in there work together, then you are doing well because then it allows you to maximize your wardrobe. I think, like, I don't what the statistic is, but it's something like, people wear only like 20 or 30% of their actual wardrobe.

Rena Annobil: Yeah, no, I read that as well.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: But then having too much stuff as, as well in your wardrobe, is that an issue as well? Because then it's decision fatigue, isn't it?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Exactly.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. Like looking at it being like, oh, I'm wasting like, you know, 10, 5, 10 minutes.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. And

Rena Annobil: deciding what to wear even.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah. And [01:00:00] who's got time when you're getting ready in the, in the morning

Rena Annobil: to go through all those clothes?

Yeah.

To

Dr Dion Terrelonge: go, maybe this, maybe this, maybe this. You, you are gonna be lost for decisions. Whereas if you know your style, you know what you have in your wardrobe, you've got fewer pieces, you've got fewer pieces, but you've got good quality pieces in there. Then, you know, they're gonna last longer. You have time to build a relationship with them.

Mm-hmm. You have time to remember they're even there because you've wore them a thousand times already. Um, you know, you've got fewer pieces in there. The, the, the tones might be similar, the cuts might be similar. So they work together and they all work for you as a person.

Rena Annobil: Okay.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: So then, yeah, you won't have that decision fatigue because it'll be more of a case of, well, where am I going today?

Well, I'm gonna to the office. So yes, I've got a, a, a wardrobe full of neutrals because I love neutrals, but I'm not gonna go for the neutral cutout dress that's like a minica. I'm gonna go for, I don't know, this neutral shirt with this like, I don't know, neutral pair of, I dunno, cargo pants and some smart shoes.

Mm-hmm. So you are, it's [01:01:00] just like, it's still you, but you are taking what works for the environment you're gonna be in and who you wanna be in that space.

Rena Annobil: Sure.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: Okay. Um, what do you think about, um, buying secondhand and, and things like vintage, for

Dr Dion Terrelonge: example? I love it, obviously. I love it. Mm. I think I'm more of a Depop person.

Um, but I also love vintage. There's such a wealth of stuff on there. You've got Depop vintage vest is fantastic as well. Um, and like I love also rental platforms as well, like her buy rotation. I think anything that allows you to keep things in cir like in circulation, you know, we need that circular economy because, you know, the old ity, we've got enough clothing on this planet to last us many, many, many years.

So I think, you know, and with trends coming round so fast is so common for an item to be trending. Do you remember like a couple years back there was that, that Zara dress was like a polka.zara dress that came in, like [01:02:00] other, was it white and navy blue or navy blue and white, or was it black and white?

But everybody had it.

Rena Annobil: Mm-hmm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Everybody. There was absolutely no need at that point to go and buy one brand new, because I guarantee every resale platform was. Drenched in them. The same thing happens now. 'cause what people do, because we are not shopping as consciously or often shopping for other people and shopping for that aught self, that ideal self, we go out and we buy something because everybody else has it.

This is the thing that I'm supposed to have. You buy it, you wear it once, but once you have a little bit of time with that item of clothing, you think, oh, I don't actually love it on me. You put it in your wardrobe, hang up, or you sell it. So now suddenly everyone's gone out. Kneejerk reaction, everyone's bought this must have item, but then half the people have gone, it's not for me.

And they've sold it. Now the secondhand spaces covered with them. So I love, you know, um, the, the secondhand platforms because it also allows you to find [01:03:00] items that otherwise might not have easily have come to mind. Because when you go into, uh, or even you go online shopping, you are seeing what is. In style at that moment and what brands tell you you should be wearing this season at the moment as opposed to when you go online, you are gonna see clothes from a range of seasons.

Um,

Rena Annobil: from vintage and

Dr Dion Terrelonge: similar. From vintage, yeah. You're gonna see clothing from, uh, over the years, you know, you are gonna see clothing that might come from different place around the world. So you get a wider range. And by being exposed to and being able to pick from a wider range of clothing, you are more able to really think about what do I, or do I die on?

Like, it's not just this is this narrow bandwidth or this narrow range of clothing that is in right now that I have to pick from. Now I have the chance to pick from all of this. So then you have a better chance of honing your personal style, um, because you've got a greater. Uh, range. And also it's be [01:04:00] better for the environment.

That's the number one, one thing.

Rena Annobil: And it's cheaper, I should say. Well, it's cheaper

Dr Dion Terrelonge: as

Rena Annobil: well.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Better for your pocket. Exactly.

Rena Annobil: Definitely, definitely. Yeah. So, um, just the last thing I wanted to ask y Dion, is what is one small step that viewers and listeners, uh, could take, you know, this week for example?

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Mm-hmm.

Rena Annobil: To just feel more aligned in what they wear.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Oh, not what I thought you were gonna ask me to feel more aligned with what they wear. I would challenge them to do a style check-in and to write down if they want, or they can do it visually with pictures like using a platform, um, to think about. What are some items, at least three items they have in their wardrobe, when they wear them, they feel happy.

What are some items that when they wear them, they feel most their selves? Um, what are some items they've had a, a happy memory in, or a pleasant memory or a memory that means something to them? And make a note and look at what [01:05:00] are those items and then say, what are the items that haven't come up? And then ask yourself Why.

Just check in with that. And I think it's quite illuminating to critically examine your wardrobe in that way and your relationship with it. Because again, like I say, we don't slow down often enough to be able to do that. And I think once you are able to slow down and critical examine in your wardrobe in that way, then you can use that as a framework going forward.

To say, actually looking at this, I notice that the clothing that I picked out that I feel happiest, most comfortable in are these types of clothes. Therefore, going forward, I'm gonna use that to more consciously buy and only buy things or more often buy things that fit that. And I'm gonna notice, I've noticed that actually, that when I buy things that are too revealing, I think I want to wear them, but I never do because I've done my check-in and it doesn't come under things that might be happy, you know, happy memories in them.

I don't feel my most myself in them. So it just, it just helps you to that kind of, almost like an audit [01:06:00] of what you have in a wardrobe. It's, that's a good idea. An emotional audit.

Rena Annobil: Mm. Sometimes I, I'll do that and then I'll, like be trying on different combinations and Mm.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Yeah.

Rena Annobil: I find it quite fun. Yeah. And I've got this, this corset, right.

You know, when you said, oh, something that you really love, you have some attachment to from my Y 2K body days. Right. The OG Y 2K body days. I've got, I saved this course, this denim corset,

Dr Dion Terrelonge: oh, sorry,

Rena Annobil: I

Dr Dion Terrelonge: caught my sound of this.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. It's, it's really nice. Mm-hmm. And I actually wore it to a concert the other year.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Mm-hmm.

Rena Annobil: And, and I, I think, I don't think I'm ever gonna. Get rid of that. I've been, there's a couple of items I'm never gonna get rid of. I'm not getting rid

Dr Dion Terrelonge: of that. Yeah. It made me think of an outfit I really want to wear. I saw something the other day, but I'm gonna buy it secondhand, obviously wearing like a a, a denim course over a white shirt.

Yes. It looks so cute. With big, wide leg trousers. Again, I like structure.

Rena Annobil: Yeah. Tailoring.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: There we go.

Rena Annobil: Okay.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: That

Rena Annobil: sounds nice. Yeah, I might even try that. Copy that look myself actually with my corset. Um, so if you just wanna share a lifestyle prescription, that's something that you have started doing that's had an impact on your [01:07:00] wellbeing that you wanna share with our viewers and listeners.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: Hmm. Something that I've done. Um, so I think something that's been very, very helpful for me over the years because I also used to shop too much. I used to shop for fun. But then I realized, you know, it took me a long while to actually realize shopping is not an activity in that way. It shouldn't be for fun, it should be out of necessity.

Um, but something I did that was very helpful was engaging more with the sustainability kind of, uh, uh, content that's out there from commentators and going to talks, listening to podcasts. Mm-hmm. Um, reading books and articles and really tuning in to, to the information that was out there. And I think learning, I think once you have learned something or heard it, you can't unlearn it.

And that had the biggest impact on me. You know, I was a massive impulse buyer if I walked past a shop and I saw something very pretty, like a magpie, I was drawn in and I had to have it. But [01:08:00] literally, once I learned more about the supply chain of fashion industry, understanding the amount of different.

People whose hands might have touched my clothing before, before it got to me, how they're being treated. Um, how waterways, you know, in, in East Asia being polluted, the impact on people's physical health, their mental health. I literally, well, I literally would walk past that same shop. I won't name it and look at the clothing.

I saw it differently now. It, it made me feel a bit not sick, but it turned me off. Mm. Whereas before I thought, oh, wow, isn't that gorgeous? Is beautiful. Now I look at that mannequin in the window and I don't see just the clothes. I see the messages and I see the lives and the history and maybe, and everything behind it now.

So I think learning and educating yourself is, is a massive tool that we can all use to help ourselves, um, consume more consciously and to slow down.

Rena Annobil: Thank you for sharing it with us.

Dr Dion Terrelonge: It's okay. You're welcome. [01:09:00]

Rena Annobil: And thank you so much for coming on today. No, thank me. It's been fascinating talking to you. Uh, I really, really enjoyed it.

Uh, and I hope that you have enjoyed this episode of The Lifestyle Prescription. And don't forget to like and subscribe, um, and also share this with someone who you think might wanna rethink their relationship with their wardrobe. Until the next one, bye.